Discover Your Personality Type - Unlocking the Enneagram for Self-Awareness & Personal Growth with Beatrice Chestnut

Discover the hidden power of the Enneagram with Beatrice Chestnut, Ph.D., psychotherapist, author, and one of the most respected voices in modern personality and consciousness studies.

What if your personality type isn’t fixed—but a doorway to higher awareness? In this conversation, Beatrice shares how the Enneagram serves as a psycho-spiritual map revealing the unconscious patterns that shape our emotions, relationships, and potential for awakening.

Highlights include:
• The origins of the Enneagram and its sacred geometry
• The nine types as a map of human evolution and potential
• Balancing the three centres of intelligence—head, heart, and body
• The “vertical path” of growth within each type
• How cultural conditioning distorts our innate wiring
• The 27 subtypes and their unique routes to self-awareness

Beatrice’s work illuminates how understanding ourselves through the Enneagram can expand both personal and collective consciousness—helping us live with greater compassion and clarity.

🔗 Learn more: beatricechestnut.com

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:04

Welcome to the Future of Wellness exploring self-transformation and holistic healing to unlock your inner potential. Hosted by Christabel Armston and Keith Parker. Hello and welcome to the Future of Wellness podcast. Today we're joined by Beatrice Chestnut, one of the most authoritative voices and thought leaders in the modern Enneagram movement. Beatrice Chestnut has been studying and working with the Enneagram for 27 years. A licensed psychotherapist, author, coach and business consultant, she has a PhD in communication and an MA in clinical psychology. Author of two books the Complete Enneagram, 27 Paths to Greater Self-Awareness and the Nine Types of Leadership. In the past decade, her work has shifted from depth psychotherapy to executive coaching, leadership development and team coaching. Beatrice is passionate about supporting people in doing the work of creating more fulfilling relationships, work and life experiences. She views the Enneagram as an important vehicle for the larger, all-important goal of raising global consciousness so we can collectively create a more positive, sustainable and self-aware world community. Welcome, beatrice. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Speaker 2 1:24

Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Speaker 1 1:26

To open, we'd love to ask how you first encountered the Enneagram and what drew you to dedicate your career to this framework.

Speaker 2 1:33

So I first learned the Enneagram in 1990 from a friend's father, so just a good friend that I had gone to junior, high and high school with and college. His father happened to be a psychiatrist in Palo Alto, where I grew up, based at Stanford University, and he kind of discovered the Enneagram in the late 80s and he started working with Helen Palmer who wrote one of the first books about the Enneagram and they started one of the first Enneagram schools in the United States. And so he was just a friend and so I felt like I stumbled upon it by accident, just through knowing him and when he told me about it and I mean it was very powerful thing to have someone who's a psychiatrist, based at Stanford University, a thriving, very successful psychotherapy practice psychiatry practice you know say to you that this thing called the Enneagram that he's working with you know, someone who's basically a psychic that this is. He said that was the most powerful tool of change that he had ever encountered in all his years and that he saw it as his calling to learn about it and bring it to people so that they could take advantage of what a powerful method it was for transformation, and so that was a very powerful message that I received from him.

Speaker 2 3:00

And then when I read Helen's book right after that I started reading Helen's book and when I read about my own type in her book it just absolutely blew my mind. It was just I never dreamed that there could be any kind of description, kind of personality typology, that could be so accurate and so deep in describing me to myself. You know, in college I had studied a little bit of psychology but I thought it was sort of boring and it didn't really. It didn't really get into any kind of depth. It seemed very superficial and kind of just about jargon. But when I read my Enneagram type, it was almost like a spiritual revelation. It was like whoa, like there's something that really goes very deep in explaining both what I know to be true about myself just at a kind of conscious, obvious level, and all these sort of things that I'm barely aware of or things that I'd rather not be aware of, but that when I am aware of them it really helps me understand myself in a much bigger way.

Speaker 3 4:08

Could you give us a general overview for viewers who are not familiar at all with the Enneagram? What is the Enneagram, what does it look like and how does one essentially use it?

Speaker 2 4:17

Sure. So the Enneagram itself is a nine-pointed star inscribed in a circle, a nine pointed star inscribed in a circle. So it's based in what's sometimes called sacred geometry or sacred arithmetic. It's an ancient symbol and it's a little bit weird at first for some people because it's like what is this thing? But it's basically like a lot of other symbols that we might see that come from sacred geometry, even like the Pythagorean theorem and the triangle and the star of David or the seal of Solomon. These are all similar to the Enneagram, sort of symbolic of a certain kind of wisdom, and the.

Speaker 2 4:59

The modern Enneagram is a nine, a nine type personality typology based on the framework of this symbol. So the symbol has nine points inscribed in a circle and it's very meaningful in terms of what this symbol represents. But basically it's a way of understanding yourself and becoming more aware of unconscious patterns so that you can transform. It's a real, it's a process, it's a, it's a symbol that is a symbol of perpetual motion and that maps out a kind of transformative process so you can both learn about, like what are my key patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving. And it's a little bit like once we know what our personality is, we can move beyond it, because the Enneagram teaching is is it's psycho-spiritual, so there's psychological elements but also spiritual elements, and it's a little bit like the work of Ken Wilber. It's the idea that we need to do a lot of psychological work first, but then at a certain point, if we do our psychological work well, we we have a lot of psychological work first, but then at a certain point, if we do our psychological work well, we have a lot of capacity for spiritual transformation, and the Enneagram maps that out both as a general process that anyone can follow and also what specifically each of the nine types of individuals can do in more specific.

Speaker 2 6:26

So one of the things that I think is really special about the Enneagram is it combines both a very powerful system or map of self-development, transformation, spiritual attainment, but at the same time it's very individualized. So it's like what you may need to do to grow may be completely different than what I need to do to grow because of our different character structures, and so it gives a lot of information about these nine personality types so that we can learn about ourselves, our personalities, which in the Enneagram model. We are not equal to our personalities, although before we do self-development work, we may think we are right. So the personality is kind of like what we've developed to survive in the world or to be functional in the world. But it's not all of who we are.

Speaker 2 7:22

And the idea behind the Enneagram is, until we do sort of intentional inner work, we kind of identify with our personality type, which is sort of a mistake right Now.

Speaker 2 7:33

On the one hand it's understandable because when we ask the question, who am I? Well, it kind of makes sense that we might think I'm who I am in everyday life or I'm who I the personality I developed to grow in childhood. But from the Enneagram point of view, our personality, learning about our personality, is like the beginning of the larger growth path where, through learning about our personality patterns and making unconscious personality patterns more conscious, we actually began a very powerful growth process of using the personality structure as a vehicle to go beyond it right. So it's almost like I have a case of mistaken identity. I think I'm my personality type. But when I really examine it and I really start observing myself in everyday life, I realize I'm just kind of caught up in these patterns because they were functional, because they helped me cope in childhood. But once we reach adulthood, those same patterns of defense that helped us grow and survive to be an adult become self-limiting. They become things that hold us back from reaching higher states of awareness and reaching our full potential.

Speaker 1 8:53

Thank you, beatrice. It's fascinating. You're hitting all the major sort of milestones along the way there of what spiritual awakening work is really in terms of moving that shift from recognizing and understanding the personality and then moving into what's unconscious, subconscious and being able to work with that. I'm intrigued, before we take it any further, what's the input required? How do we define our type? What data is taken? How is it that that type is identified, and why nine as well? What's the? What's the purpose there?

Speaker 2 9:23

Right. Well, maybe I'll start with the end. So nine. So the Enneagram is based on sacred arithmetic and this has been around for thousands of years, this idea that numbers are actually divine principles and they have very powerful meaning. And nine is sort of one of the things that symbolizes is the outer boundary of one of the things that symbolizes is the outer boundary Right. And so nine. I mean it'd be too long to go into exactly why nine, but just just I'll assure you that there's a lot of very powerful reason for nine.

Speaker 2 9:57

And I think that the main thing is that each of these and again they're one of the things I like about the Enneagram is there are nine interconnected types. So if you look at the diagram of the Enneagram, you'll see that on the one hand it's inscribed in a circle and the circle symbolizes unity, the idea that all is one sort of one of the core spiritual sort of ideas in the universe and that so everything is connected. But then each Enneagram type is also connected to two other types through inner lines of the Enneagram and also through what we call wing points, which is the two types next to it. So there's a kind of interconnection as well. So the idea is is that we, while in personality, one of the mistakes we make is by sort of stubbornly looking at all of life through a narrow slice, through one ninth of what of what's actually out there. So it's almost like our personality type is a lens on the world which kind of narrows our vision to just kind of the Enneagram types One.

Exploring Centers of Intelligence in Enneagram

Speaker 2 11:06

One thing that defines them is what you focus your attention on, right, so we can't focus on everything at once and, depending on what our Enneagram type is, there are certain things we pay a lot of attention to and certain things that we don't pay attention to at all. And so one of the things that defines the type is that, like what's on my view screen every day, what am I mostly paying attention to? You know, one type might pay attention to tasks and work and goals. Another type may pay attention to what's missing or a sense of inadequacy inside themselves, inadequacy inside themselves. One another type looks at sort of what's positive in a situation and how can I, you know, make things match a vision that I could create in the future? So they they're each defined by both a focus of attention, but also these specific patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving, and one aspect of the Enneagram is it's also built on the law of three and of course, just like the circle represents unity and that's a core part of many of the world's spiritual traditions, so is a trinity, threefoldness.

Speaker 2 12:26

Embedded in the Enneagram is the idea that as humans we have three centers of intelligence head, heart and body and that these three centers are kind of co-equal, right, and so in the West we kind of privilege the head right, and it's only in the last, you know, 20 plus years that we understand emotional intelligence right, heart intelligence. One of the aspects of the Enneagram that I think it really helps us understand that we understand emotional intelligence right, heart intelligence. One of the aspects of the Enneagram that I think it really helps us understand that we still aren't very good at is body intelligence or instinctual intelligence, and from the Enneagram point of view we need all three and there are certain intelligences that are more tailored for particular functions. But when we're looking at the nine Enneagram types, there are three types that overuse the head center, three types that overuse the heart center and three types that overuse the body center. So they're sort of based in that center and they have a bias in the direction of what that center of intelligence is best at doing.

Speaker 1 13:20

But I'm not sure I answered your question, so let me know the only other piece was, and perhaps as a brief answer to this how is what data is taken? How is a person's type defined? What's that process?

Speaker 2 13:31

Yeah, so typing is a tricky thing. Sometimes people take Enneagram tests and my business partner and I have an Enneagram test that we develop. There's a few others out there. The tricky thing about tests is that often they're not very accurate, because it's a difficult challenge to create a test, that because the personality is complex, the Enneagram is complex, but there are a few tests out there that are pretty accurate not very many. So one way is by taking a test.

Speaker 2 14:00

An even better way is working with someone who knows the Enneagram really well, like an Enneagram teacher or coach or psychotherapist that is skilled in sort of doing a typing interview.

Speaker 2 14:11

You know I've been doing these typing interviews for 30 years and over time you sort of develop a way of asking the right questions and helping the person tease out what their main type is, and helping the person tease out what their main type is. And another way might just be, if someone's interested and they've been already doing self-development work, reading over a really good description of the nine types and deciding like what fits for me or not. You know Now, the tricky part about that is that the Enneagram, in addition to describing our patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving, they also describe blind spots, which is one of the most powerful elements of the Enneagram right, because I need help seeing what I don't see and that I don't see that I don't see. But so that's. The one tricky thing about the typing process is, if you read like, okay, this type does this, you might say, well, I don't do that. Well, maybe you do do that, but you just don't realize that you do that.

Speaker 3 15:09

So there are these nine spokes in a sense not exactly spokes, because it's not exactly wheeled like, but there's a circle around it, as you said. So a person gets a typology or a certain location on one of those nine, and then what's the journey from there? Is the idea that everyone works their way through the challenges inherent in their personality type to almost expand to the circle, or something along those lines. Is there an enviable place to be as a starting point, like, is there any kind of better personality type than others to get closer to the outer rim, so to speak, or is everything equal?

Journey of Self-Awareness and Growth

Speaker 2 15:47

Right, Good question. So you know. So if it might be helpful to think about it this way. So if we think about nine types arrayed in this circle, basically all the types are equal in terms of you know, they all have functional strengths in the world, Although the strengths of the type can sometimes be problems because we over-rely on the strengths of our personality or our ego and then we have a harder time changing right? But let's say there's nine types and they're basically equal in terms of strengths and challenges in a functional, egoic way. But then there's also a vertical dimension, right? So for each of the nine types it's kind of like there's a vertical path to follow. There's like a lower level version of that type and a higher level version of that type, and basically it's sort of a spectrum. And let's say, someone learns about the Enneagram and they've already been doing a lot of self-development work, like they've done meditation or spiritual work or they've gone to psychotherapy. They'll probably enter in at a sort of slightly higher level on that vertical spectrum because they've already been doing the work.

Speaker 2 16:55

That's akin to the Enneagram work, which is basically just self-observing and getting more and more aware of what you actually do. One of the tricky parts when you're trying to find your Enneagram type is a lot of us walk around with a vision of ourselves that we'd like to be or that we want others to see that may not exactly match what we actually do in our lives, right? So the Enneagram when we're finding our type and doing this work, one of the challenges is kind of being more honest about really observing, like what am I actually doing? Because a lot of times we don't want to admit what we're doing, right. So, for instance, like if I really care about other people's approval or some types don't care as much about somebody's approval but really being honest with yourself about what am I really like? What are my patterns that I'm caught up in? Really all about vertical dimension and there are steps and there are a lot of elements of the Enneagram map to kind of make use of, to kind of try to take that vertical trip to a higher level, from a lower level of consciousness to a higher level of consciousness.

Speaker 2 18:03

And, by the way, the Enneagram helps us understand that, by definition, when we're in a human experience, we're at a low level. We start off at a low level of consciousness, the human experience, right. However, the level. We start off at a low level of consciousness. That's the human experience, right? However, the good news is it's sort of our birthright, it's part of what we are as humans to go to a higher level of consciousness. But what the Enneagram and the teaching behind it tells us is it takes a lot of effort, right? So the idea being we have lot of effort, right, so the idea being we have. You know, we are part divine. So I always love the saying that the human being is the rope and a tug of war between the animal and the angel. Right, so we're part animal and the Enneagram speaks to that part in terms of our instinctual level of being. It talks a lot about our instincts and there's a whole teaching around that embedded in the Enneagram. But then we also have this capacity for higher awareness.

Speaker 2 18:59

Now I'll say one. That's sort of the vertical path. Now I do want to say one more thing about the horizontal element. Is that one thing that also helps us is developing more access to the other types. Right, so I'm a two on the Enneagram, right, as a two, if I'm looking at the diagram, I'm connected to my two wing points, which are one and three, simply the type points on either side of me and I also have lines within the circle connected to type eight and type four right. So those four types are types that I have easier access to than some of the others.

Speaker 2 19:38

So one of the other sort of self-development paths of the Enneagram is starting to get out of the sort of narrow viewpoint of my type, which is two and seeing everything through a type two lens, and starting to be able to kind of lean into one or lean into three, kind of use the capacities of those points, and then also four and eight.

Speaker 2 20:02

Because again, as part of being a two I have, I already have some access to those other four points. And if I kind of do some intentional work around saying, okay, how can I leverage the four in me, how can I get more aware of sort of the healthy four in me and sort of put that in my bag of tools almost like now, I can sort of see things through the four lens and the more conscious I am of that, the more I can sort of incorporate the aspects of those points that also help me grow. So there's kind of both a horizontal like bringing in more of the other types so that I'm not just stubbornly just adhering to my own types viewpoint, but then also a lot to do in terms of the vertical dimension, in terms of just going to higher and higher levels of awareness through almost using my ego patterns, my personality patterns, as a ladder or a vehicle to go beyond them.

Understanding the 9 Enneagram Types

Speaker 3 21:08

A brief pause to thank you for listening to this episode. If you're looking to take the next step in your transformation, find out how we can support you with our popular energy healing training, one-to-one private sessions, free resources and more. Visit energyfielddynamicscom to learn more. Would you mind just doing a quick run-through of the nine? I'm sure you could go on forever about each of them, but what's a succinct, you know nine type kind of overview?

Speaker 2 21:41

Okay, I'll try to do this in a succinct way. It is a challenge, but I'll try to just give a little bit of a flavor, maybe just the focus of attention and something like that. So I usually like to start with the body types. And the body types are eight, nine and one. So, and again, each of the body types are. They kind of have more of a gut knowing or an instinctual intelligence, sort of process, structure, order, routines. These are the kinds of things right and wrong, these are the things that the body types share in common, things right and wrong. These are the things that the body types share in common.

Speaker 2 22:17

Also, they're connected to the emotion of anger. Right, eights tend to overdo anger. There are people who are really in touch with anger. Nines are not really in touch with their anger but it really drives them a lot in a more unconscious way, like their anger leaks out as in a passive way, like stubbornness. And then ones are kind of in the middle. They put a lid on the anger, but it lakes out in different ways. So that's just sort of an overview of the three body types.

Speaker 2 22:41

So eights tend to be people who focus a lot on strength and power and expressing that power. They like to meet big challenges. These are people who you know sort of obvious kind of people who like to express their strength and power by taking on big challenges, moving big things forward. They tend to focus a lot on taking action, they tend to be very decisive and they tend to be good in a conflict, right, in fact, they're one of the few types that actually doesn't mind conflict, and actually they might say something like I don't trust someone until I've had a conflict with them. So the interesting thing, though, is they focus on power and expressing that in the world, but what they don't focus on the blind spot is their vulnerability, and you can see how this is sort of functional right, like, if I'm going to be, you know, strong in a conflict, not very useful to be in touch with my vulnerability, so they tend to deny vulnerability but overcompensate into being strong, being powerful. It's sort of a can-do I can do anything kind of attitude, but in relationships they can have problems because, for instance, they may not, when they get hurt, they may express anger, and they may deny that hurt or the sadness or any of the vulnerable, softer feelings that are just human, but because they focus in one place, that sort of tends to stay in the blind spot.

Speaker 2 24:14

Nines are types that there's, some so, and, by the way, the eights I usually don't use this sort of names of the type, but I think when we're trying to do it in a concise way it helps. Nines are sometimes called the boss, and indeed there are types that enjoy being the boss, that are comfortable being the boss. They don't need to be the boss, but if there's a power vacuum they'll definitely step in. They're also very attuned to unfairness and justice and kind of making their own justice, making their own rules and not following the rules of others. Nines, on the other hand, are sometimes called the peacemaker. So nines tend to be people who focus their attention on harmonizing with the environment, and so they tend to avoid conflict. And because they avoid conflict, they also tend to sort of unconsciously turn the volume down on their own desires. Opinions anger, and they focus a lot on others and on harmonizing with others. They tend to be good mediators. They tend to be naturally very humble, but for them that's an ego thing, right, but for them that's an ego thing, right.

Speaker 2 25:35

Nines, when they do inner growth work, they need to get more in touch with their power. They need to get more access to their own inner, knowing about themselves, because their attention goes out to others. And one of the things we learned through the Enneagram is when your attention goes to one place, there's somewhere it doesn't go. So, nines, sometimes if they're the people if you say, hey, where do you want to go for dinner tonight? They'll say I don't know, where do you want to go? Right, because they really don't know. Or they'll say I don't really care, I don't really have a preference, and you can see how that's an outgrowth of I don't want to get into a conflict with anyone. So I don't even know what I want and I and I've sort of learned over time that I don't care what I want, because it's like the personality strategy is going along to get along, like I'll go along with what you want, and that way we're in peaceful harmony with each other and you can be happy and I don't have to worry about conflict. But you can see the downside of this and the growth opportunity that's in the downside. For nines is realizing no, I actually need to get in touch with what I want Because, for instance, in an intimate relationship, if your partner doesn't know what they want. That's hard right, because then you can't sort of come together and find things to do that you both want to do. So that's type nine.

Speaker 2 26:48

Type one is sometimes called the perfectionist or the reformer. Now, not all ones are perfectionists, it sort of depends on subtype. But basically ones see the world through a lens of right and wrong, good and bad, and they tend to focus on detecting errors and mistakes and correcting them. Right. So they tend to be very quality oriented how to make something perfect or more perfect, and they tend to like focus attention on how is whatever's happening, how does that not match the ideal of what should be happening? Right? So they think in terms of shoulds and musts and they can be very self-critical, but also critical of others, because they're always trying to do the right thing themselves and always noticing how they're not doing things well enough. Right. So it's always trying to make things better, trying to make themselves better, trying to make other people better, trying to make society better and seeing how things could be made better and putting efforts into that happening.

Speaker 2 27:57

Now the heart types are types two, three and four, and the heart types come more from emotion, but again, each in a different way. Fours are probably the most aware of their emotions. They live most of their time in their emotions and twos and threes are kind of in and out, like threes are the most. They kind of like a little bit like nines put a lid on their anger even though they're anger types. Threes kind of put it, even though they're the core, the center of the heart triad, they put a, they kind of unconsciously put a lid on their emotions because their main coping strategy is getting things done Right and if you're in a big emotion that makes it harder to get something done Right.

Speaker 2 28:40

But starting with twos, twos um, all of the three heart types usually got the message in childhood that you're loved. For some reason you had to earn love rather than just receiving love or being given love for who you naturally really are. So twos kind of get the message and again it's their filter also of I get the love to the degree that I'm likable, pleasing and supporting and giving to others. So twos focus a lot on others and, by the way, twos and nines are lookalikes. They're very different but on the surface they look alike because they both focus on others and they both avoid conflict.

Speaker 2 29:23

Now twos are more emotional types who are kind of looking for love but don't want to ask for it directly because they're very afraid of rejection. Right Like, if you want to be liked or loved. If you ask for it directly because they're very afraid of rejection, right Like, if you want to be liked or loved. If you ask for that and then someone says no, that's really hard, right. So twos, what their sort of strategy that they develop is I'm going to give to others, I'm going to be nice to others, I'm going to be friendly and likable and giving, and that way people will be that way to me. So it's a little bit like a, a mindset of reciprocity. So, um, so twos tend to be very friendly, very upbeat, very positive and very other oriented. So, um, twos will tune in automatically to how other people are feeling, and if someone doesn't feel good, they may be motivated to go try to make that person feel better somehow, especially if that person is important to them.

Speaker 2 30:21

For twos, not all people are created equal. Although they may want everyone to like them, generally, the most important people to them are going to get more of their efforts, let's say so. Twos are very aware of gaining the approval of others and sometimes the growth path is because twos put too much focus on others. The growth path is I need to get more in touch with myself, right? So my growth tasks for this year is really connecting with myself completely before I connect with others. Because I can distract myself from my own needs, my own feelings, through focusing on somebody else's needs and feelings. Because the coping strategy is if I make you happy, then eventually I'll be happy because you'll wanna make me happy in the same way I made you happy.

Speaker 2 31:09

But of course other people aren't twos, and twos don't realize that. And so twos then can be resentful of others when they don't give, when they don't receive back the same thing they gave, right. So twos need to learn look, other people aren't trying to read your mind and please you proactively the same way you're doing for them. So it's not really fair to get resentful when you don't get what you need, especially because you tend to ask for it indirectly, right? Instead of just saying what I need. So twos actually need to learn to be more direct about what they need and more direct about where they stand, and realize that a lot of what they do is seducing others into trying to get what they need indirectly instead of being more straightforward. And again, there can be an avoidance of conflict, an avoidance of being honest about what they think and believe, because they think it will get between them and others.

Speaker 2 32:02

And us twos, we're always trying to create a good rapport with other people. We're always focusing on relationship. So type three, similar to two, only focused more on work and tasks and goals. So three's got the message in childhood that you get the love to the degree that you're seen as successful and competent, right. So threes, um, although they're good at relationships, they focus more on getting their relational needs met through sort of being a high achiever, being someone who appears successful. And, by the way, success is defined by social consensus in the given context, right? So what it means to have a successful image is going to look different in the US than it does in France, than it does in China, than it does in China, than it does in Thailand, than it does in Brazil, right? So different cultural contexts. You'll find threes looking different because they're shapeshifters and they're chameleons, but they're trying to match up with whatever the definition of a successful image is. So very image-oriented, very achievement oriented. And when you're achievement oriented, image oriented and success oriented. You get really good at defining the steps to the goal. That helps me achieve what I want. That helps me look successful, so very work oriented and this is the type of US culture status oriented.

Speaker 2 33:33

But the problem with threes and the big growth opportunity is I'm so focused on my outside that I don't know what's going on inside, so I don't know who I really am. And threes avoid their own emotions and part of why they work so hard. Threes are the big workaholics of the Enneagram. They work so hard because they're outrunning their emotions. As soon as they stop or slow down, emotions come right in right and emotions are threatening if you're someone who wants to get a lot done or be super efficient or super effective. And yet the growth path for threes is to stop doing or slow down and get in touch with emotions, because emotions lead you into the truth of who you really are.

Speaker 2 34:12

If the Enneagram is something where we're all kind of identified with a false self or persona, threes are sort of the prototype of doing that. That's their main thing. They identify with a persona, the false self, and they don't know who their true self is. So when threes start on in the growth path. They can be like I don't know who I am, and it can be very anxiety provoking to look inside A little bit. The same for twos, but definitely for threes also. So then fours are the most emotional.

Speaker 2 34:45

So if there's a tension between being who others want you to be and being who you authentically are, twos and threes go more toward I'm going to be who others want me to be and fours go more toward I'm going to be who I authentically am. Also very aware of image, but they prioritize expressing who they are in the world. But because that's not always going to be approved of right, if we are all who we authentically are, some people aren't going to like us right. Some people are going to go against us because they don't like who we are. So fours also kind of walk around with a sense of inadequacy or deficiency or there's something wrong with me, because they are really prioritizing expressing their authentic self and sometimes they're getting misunderstood or judged or or disliked by others and they take that really to heart, but it's hard. So they're sort of caught up in this. I want to be who I authentically am and sometimes that means I feel judged or misunderstood by the outside world and that doesn't feel good. Now, fours tend to look at the glass half empty, because they look at what's missing so that they can sort of do something to, you know, gain approval from others. They're also very relationship focused, but they focus a little more on the space between us or on disconnection. You know, connection and disconnection and they can part of what makes them feel bad or sad or mad, can be that sense of disconnection that they feel with others when they are authentically who they are but they don't get seen in the way they want to.

Speaker 2 36:23

So then, fives are five, six and seven are head types and, by the way, twos, threes and fours associated with the emotion of sadness. Five, six and seven associated with the core emotion of fear. Sixes overdo fear, sevens underdo fear. Fives are kind of in the middle. They get good at avoiding situations where they would be fearful. Fives are kind of in the middle. They get good at avoiding situations where they would be fearful. Fives are kind of the quintessential introvert. So we just heard fours are most in touch with their feelings. Fives disconnect the most from their feelings and they go into their heads. So fives are very heady, very intellectual and can be easily overwhelmed by emotions, other people's emotions included, so they can tend to disconnect and go into their head. Connecting with others can be challenging. Expressing, disclosing, self-disclosing can be challenging. Being in that connection where people may expect you to share feelings or share yourself can be challenging. Fives kind of take refuge, kind of inside themselves and minimizing needs of the outside world so they can kind of stay safe inside themselves or inside their own heads. Often content experts, very intellectual, can talk more when it's more intellectual but may have sort of their sort of growth path is developing more tolerance for sharing emotions and connecting with others, developing more tolerance for sharing emotions and connecting with others.

Speaker 2 37:48

Sixes are the core fear type and so just like fight or flight. The three kinds of sixes, the three subtypes of sixes, represent three different coping strategies for dealing with fear, but all of them have in common a sense of being driven by fear and again, often unconsciously. Many sixes will say they didn't know they were driven by fear until they learned the Enneagram. But it's very much a focus on threats and what could go wrong and solving problems proactively or detecting threats ahead of time and preparing for the worst. They're worst case scenario thinkers. They can think in terms of problems and proactively solving them. But they're also sort of get glass half empty people, because they're looking for what could go wrong so that they can control that and figure out how to meet the things before they happen. So they're prepared, right. So, but they end up looking on the dark side or on the side of what could go wrong and as, and not looking at sort of what could go right or the opportunities in a situation.

Speaker 2 38:54

Um, and then type seven is um, sometimes called the epicure, um, it's the type that's the most positive of all the types. So, don't worry, be happy. Or why would you feel bad if you could feel good? And they see feeling of all the types. So don't worry, be happy. Or why would you feel bad if you could feel good? And they see feeling good as a choice.

Speaker 2 39:10

So sevens are very much, even though they're driven by fear, they tend to be more unconscious of that and it motivates them to be more positive and they tend to focus on pleasure as a way of avoiding pain. But this is a big blind spot for them. Sometimes sevens don't realize that way of avoiding pain. But this is a big blind spot for them. Sometimes sevens don't realize that they're avoiding pain. They just think, oh, I'm just a positive person, I'm just oriented to pleasure my own and that of others. And so there are people that look at the positive data but unconsciously avoid the negative data. But they're very quick minds, very creative, very idealistic, very future oriented, thinking outside of the box, very creative, a lot of entrepreneurs, or sevens. And so that's. I'm wary of time, so I'll maybe stop there.

Speaker 1 39:58

I'm intrigued, beatrice, if you notice cultural differences and how people relate to the Enneagram, the way you're describing this, and how might those differences inform its application in a universal sense, sort of globally, as we consider the collective?

Speaker 2 40:12

Yeah, another great question. So I have had the big honor of doing Enneagram work in many different countries in the world and my sense is is that one of the things that's amazing about the Enneagram? You go to different countries and a one is still a one and a four is still a four and a nine is still a nine, so there is a kind of amazing universality. That said, there are other cultural differences, right. So, for instance, different countries and cultures have Enneagram personality types associated with them, right? So if you're, if you're from, let's say, a type nine culture, you're going to have kind of a certain that certain dimension and you're not a nine. You're going to have that influence in you because you, that's the air that you breathe, the culture or the society that you've grown up in, and so that's going to have play a role in how your personality expresses itself.

Speaker 2 41:12

So, for instance, like there are some you know, the US is a type three country and so threes it's sort of, you know, rewarded if you're a three in the US culture. But, for instance, if you go to Thailand, thailand is a type nine culture, right, and it's not very good to be a three there because the type nine culture says you shouldn't seek recognition, you shouldn't want to stand out. You know it's more about being kind to everyone and not necessarily about sort of your own achievements or standing above others right, so it's harder to be a three and a nine culture and there are a lot of different kinds of examples of that. So it's kind of a both and there's a universality, and it's always important to take into account culture, especially, for instance, when you're trying to find your type, because there may be some sort of cultural overlay that makes it a little bit more complicated to find your type if the culture that you've come from has made it sort of harder to be that type or they're sort of intervening factors.

Speaker 1 42:15

I'm going to extrapolate slightly on what you've said, then. Is the intention or the ideal greater contrast for more growth? I'm intrigued as to what the intention might be in the long run. Is it that somebody is ideally in balance across all nine types? Is that even a possibility? Is it that, in exposing ourselves to, say, different places of living or more extreme contrast, that that avenue of growth is being stretched? Or what are we looking for? More affinity or more contrast?

Speaker 2 42:47

basically, I think what we're looking for is more balance and a wider perspective at greater self-awareness and things like more humility, like, for instance, when we're in our ego. There are certain, there are certain um signs that what we're like, when someone's really egoic or they're at a lower level of consciousness, right Tend to be very self-oriented, tend to blame others for your mistakes. It's harder to take responsibility for things, to apologize, so there's certain kind of basic things around being caught up in ego patterns versus being at a higher level of consciousness. It's almost like your perspective widens, you become more humble. It's not just about me, it's also about others. So I would say probably a little more affinity than contrast, but it's a little bit more like you develop more empathy for others and other points of view.

Speaker 2 43:49

You don't automatically think like my way is the right way, it's like no, there are many different ways, like all of these different perspectives are equally valid and I and I, I can learn and grow to the point where I see from almost like a higher perspective. I see, you know, and as we grow spiritually, of course we get closer to this idea of we're all one. You know, of you know the real goal is love and to come more from a space of love and kindness with everyone, and not just I need to get mine or I need to get my own goals. So it's a little bit the same as spiritual growth. It's as you go to a higher level of consciousness and we have our own sort of level of consciousness model that's integrated with the Enneagram, where at a certain level it's a lot about living more from love, from gratitude, from humility. And as you go there, there are going to be certain changes that occur in your particular personality style, depending on you know what your path is and depending which of the nine types you are.

Speaker 3 44:59

In terms of the history of how the Enneagram has been informed in the modernity? Have you taken a lot of influence or inspiration really from some of the major figures of the Enneagram people like Ichazo or Gurdjieff or is it coming from more ancient sources, like what's been your point of inspiration for your studies?

Understanding Enneagram Origins

Speaker 2 45:19

So for my studies and I think many people who studied the Enneagram in the 20th and 21st centuries we do study a lot two different kind of buckets of sources. One is Gurdjieff, and Gurdjieff really was the person who introduced the symbol and the meaning, the very powerful meaning behind the symbol, the esoteric, spiritual meaning, the mystical meaning, and he didn't talk about the nine types, so he's more coming from a place of helping humanity kind of understand what's necessary, the necessary ingredients for transformation at this moment in history. And he talked about the Enneagram in very powerful terms, saying, for instance, it is a symbol of perpetual motion, it's the philosopher's stone of the alchemists. If you know how to read the Enneagram and almost no one does, but if you did, it would make books and libraries entirely unnecessary. I mean, these are things Gurdjieff said and he had a whole teaching connected to the Enneagram, although he was also sort of mysterious about certain things. And one of the things he emphasized is how difficult it is to actually achieve change and transformation as humans, but that the Enneagram was something that could help in that process because of its symbolic representation of what it means to transform or how to achieve transformation Now in another bucket or another strand of influence is Oscar Hachazo, who brought forth the Enneagram in the 20th century, around the 60s and 70s, and I would say it was more of a rediscovery than an invention.

Speaker 2 47:07

I think the Enneagram has been around for millennia but it was sort of like the moment in time maybe because humanity needs it right now that Achazo was able to kind of bring it forth and talk about it in terms he talked about it in terms of the nine types. Now he had a whole big teaching built around it. The Enneagram was really one piece and kind of an 18 point system that he had. But Claudio Naranjo is also the other person that I would say I see as an extremely important figure in the modern Enneagram movement, which he, you know, claudio Naranjo was a Chilean, born American, trained psychiatrist who was a big figure in the human potential movement in the US. He worked with Fritz Perls to develop gestalt the early 70s with a group of people from Esalen and brought it back to Berkeley in California where he kind of further developed it.

Speaker 2 48:14

Now I would say the Enneagram that most of us use today in terms of the definition of the nine types and the 27 subtypes, which is another subject we can mention, if not go into, because it makes it a little more complicated.

Speaker 2 48:30

I think his definitions are the ones we use today. So I was trained as an academic and so I'm always looking for who are the most seminal authors that we really want to look to for the most authoritative understanding of this, and it really is Gurdjieff on the one hand, and then Achazo and Claudio Naranjo on the other hand. And Claudio did a lot to refine the nine, the descriptions of the nine types, and line them up with existing psychological theory. And so that's one of the amazing things about these nine types is they line up with a lot of other existing psychological theories that have three stages or three kind of phases. And so one of the things he did, I think, is consciously and unconsciously draw on kind of existing psychological theory to help us make sense of these nine types, and I think the way he described them ended up making them really clear and usable for us. And so those are the main kind of seminal authors that I look to.

Speaker 1 49:36

Let's hear more about those 27 types. Beatrice, I'd love to.

Speaker 2 49:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2 49:41

So I like to usually start with nine types, because that's digestible, let's say. And actually when I'm introducing the Enneagram, even in different settings, but especially, say in a business setting, I start with the three centers of intelligence, and Gurdjieff had talked about how they're man number one, man number two and man number three. So he did talk about the body-based person, the heart-based person and the head-based person. So I start by talking about these three centers of intelligence, because three is easier than nine. And then there are three types that sort of live more from the head, three types that live more from the heart, three types that live more from the body. And then the subtypes represent the idea that there's actually just another breakdown into three, and that is the idea that for each of the nine types there are three versions of those types. So for type two, there are three versions of type two and that's based on which one of three survival instincts or survival drives are strongest in you. So just like we all have three centers of intelligence, but one of them is kind of our main one, and then within that center of intelligence, one of those three types is our main one, you are.

Speaker 2 51:07

There are three basic kind of groupings of instincts or survival drives. There's a drive for self-preservation, a social instinct that's kind of like a group, like getting along with the group or the tribe or the herd. That's an important instinct. And then the sexual instinct, which is a lot about one-to-one bonding or fusion, and again all in service of survival. And this instinctual level is the main level that we share with all animals, right? So this is the animal part of us but embedded in the personality, it becomes one level or one element of the personality type.

Speaker 2 51:41

So, depending on which one of these three instincts is strongest in you, that gives you the sort of definition of your subtype. So for me, for instance, I'm a type two. Of those three instincts, the self-preservation instinct is strongest for me, so I'm a self-preservation two, and so the idea that each of these nine types comes in three versions equals 27 types. Now, the great virtue of this level of subtype, or the 27 types, is that it gives you even more and clearer definition of your type and an even more clear definition of your growth path. So even within one type like what I need to do to grow as a self-preservation two is going to be kind of different from what a social two needs to do in some ways, even opposite.

Speaker 2 52:33

So my teaching partner and I we do a lot of retreats and Enneagram work and we really use the subtypes a lot because we work with individuals and we really want to help each individual really key in on what are the really specific things I need to do to grow? What can I focus on to really go the farthest in my self-development or just do what I need to do to do my next step in the most effective way? And we find that the subtype really helps us with that because it gives us a more nuanced, more detailed understanding of our unconscious patterns that we need to be more aware of.

Speaker 1 53:13

We mentioned there in the opening bio about the importance, as you see it, of the Enneagram as a vehicle for larger, all-important goal of raising global consciousness. And you mentioned countries and cultures have an enneagram type and I wondered if humanity, if the collective, has an enneagram type currently.

Speaker 2 53:33

Well, that's an interesting question. So my first sense is not really, but there is a way in that type nine is sometimes thought of as a nuclear type that all the types kind of flow from. The type nine represents the kind of way we all fall asleep to who we really are In the Buddhist three poisons. It's sort of the ignorance, right. And so there is a way that this teaching, especially from Gurdjieff, talks about how humankind is asleep. And that's the problem, right, we tend to operate in very mechanical ways, but what Gurdjieff said is a machine that can become aware of itself as a machine stops being a machine, right. So in a way I wouldn't say I mean maybe humanity, we could see humanity as a type nine in the sense that our biggest problem is that we fall asleep and we get caught up in very unconscious, ego-driven patterns. And if we look around the world today we can see some people are operating from a very low level of consciousness in very destructive ways, with no empathy, ways that really make the other bad, and then just use that as a justification to go against them.

Speaker 2 54:50

And certainly I would say, when we don't do our individual work, is we contribute to the shadow of humanity or the shadow of our culture, and then the shadow gets acted out and in bad ways, right.

Speaker 2 55:05

This is the idea that the ego is a low level of consciousness when we're totally identified with our ego or acting from ego, and there's a lot of examples of this happening in the world today.

Speaker 2 55:17

Conversely, when we each do our self development work and so great for people like you who are actually absolutely doing this exact work in the world when we're helping people to give them pathways and methods for going from a hut to a higher level of conscious, being aware of the ego and the ways we can act in ways that aren't good for ourselves or others when we come from ego, from a, a very unconscious place.

Speaker 2 55:45

The more we become aware of that, the more we contribute to something positive in the world, in humanity. And so sometimes, when we do inner work, retreats focused on the Enneagram and Achazo used to do this in his Eureka school we dedicate the work to all of humanity, kind of hoping that our individual efforts will somehow connect to global consciousness and raising that consciousness. And, of course, some people think that we're in the midst of a great awakening today and part of what's happening with all the difficult things we're seeing in the world is a backlash against that sort of the forces of darkness or the forces of the ego, really kind of trying to hang on and assert their will against this sense of growing, of the growing of the light in some ways. So so, yes, that Enneagram is very much a part of this whole idea of you know, contributing to global consciousness and the growth of humanity to a higher level of consciousness, and by doing what we can each do as individuals.

Speaker 3 56:48

As we're coming to a close, we're wondering how you might direct listeners to the work you're doing and also if somebody does want to take action and experience the potency of the Enneagram, what do you recommend?

Speaker 2 57:01

Yeah, so our website is cpenenneogramcom. That stands for Chestnut Pius, so I'm the chestnut, my teaching partner, a Brazilian, amazing Brazilian Enneagram expert who, by the way, is very good in energy healing. He's Uranio Pius, so Chestnut Pius Enneagram Academy. That's the Enneagram school that we've created, both to train professionals and how to use the Enneagram like spiritual directors, therapists, coaches, but also a place to do deep, inner, transformative work using the Enneagram. So we have kind of two, two strands of what we do. We train people on how to use the Enneagram in their professional practice and we also provide opportunities for people to use the Enneagram in a deep way. So we have a calendar of events all year online and in-person trainings and retreats, and so you can find everything about it there. And, by the way, I have written a third book, and my third book is written with Oganio. It's called the Enneagram Guide to Waking Up, and so, but you can find information about our teachings. We have free information about the Enneagram you can download there. It's all at our website.

Speaker 1 58:15

Beautiful. Thank you, beatrice, and thank you for mentioning that third book. We'll be sure to reference that as well. It's been a real pleasure to talk to you. It's not an area in which I have much background, you know. It's something I've touched into and come across occasionally, and I've certainly seen it in professional development, but love to hear you speaking so passionately about the use of this incredible tool in personal development. So thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 2 58:38

Thank you. Well, thank you both for your interest and for having me on your podcast. I really appreciate it me on your podcast.

Speaker 1 58:51

I really appreciate it. Thanks for being a part of the future of wellness. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review. It helps us reach more people and to make great episodes like this one. Learn more about field dynamics and why we think the future of wellness matters. Check us out at energyfielddynamicscom. See you next time.