The Future of Wellness
Welcome to The Future of Wellness - a podcast exploring energy healing, consciousness, trauma recovery, and somatic transformation with world-class experts.
Hosted by Christabel Armsden and Keith Parker, founders of Field Dynamics, this series bridges science and spirit through meaningful conversations at the edge of subtle energetics, neuroscience, embodiment, and human potential. From Ayurveda to energy medicine, meditation to somatic therapies, we uncover timeless tools and emerging insights to support healing, presence, and inner growth.
Whether you're a practitioner, seeker, or simply curious about how wellness is evolving, The Future of Wellness invites you into a deeper dialogue - one that reconnects you to the field of who you truly are.
The Future of Wellness
The Science of Spontaneous Spiritual Awakening with Jessica Corneille
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What triggers a spontaneous spiritual awakening — and can science explain it?
In this episode, research psychologist Jessica Corneille, MSc shares her journey from an unexpected awakening to becoming a leading voice in the study of spiritually transformative experiences (STEs). Now a Ph.D. Candidate in Neurophenomenology at the University of Cambridge, Jessica’s mission is to bridge science and spirituality, helping psychology embrace awakening as a vital part of human potential.
We discuss:
- Jessica’s own awakening and its impact on her career path
- The catalysts for awakening — from trauma to deep meditation
- Differences between spontaneous, psychedelic, and practice-based awakenings
- How culture, religion, and psychology shape interpretation
- The importance of community and integration after awakening
- The challenges and breakthroughs in bringing awakening into scientific discourse
Jessica has presented her work at academic conferences including the British Psychological Society and published articles for the Psychedelic Society. Her research is changing the conversation about how we understand and support these transformative human experiences.
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Welcome to the future of wellness , exploring self transformation and holistic healing to unlock your inner potential . Hosted by Christabel Armston and Keith Parker .
Speaker 2Hello and welcome to this episode of the future of Wellness . Today , we're joined by Jessica Cornet . Jessica is a research psychologist specializing in spontaneous spiritual awakenings . She has a master's degree in psychology from the University of Greenwich , where she focused her studies on exceptional human experiences , also known as spiritually transformative experiences . With a passion to bridge the worlds of science and spirituality , her mission is to challenge the default pathologizing of spiritual awakening experiences by helping to inform and encourage mainstream psychology to look beyond the current designated spectrum of normality and to encompass the transpersonal as something that is intrinsic to the human experience . She has presented her work at several academic conferences , including the British Psychological Society , and has published articles for many publications , including the Psychedelic Society , and she is featured in a new chapter in a book that explores spiritual awakening among members of the scientific community . Jessica , it's really a pleasure to have you with us here today .
Speaker 3Thank you , lovely to be here .
Speaker 2Maybe you could give us a general understanding of what is this field of spiritually transformative experiences .
Speaker 3Yeah , so the field is relatively vast in that you can observe these kinds of experiences from different angles , but the experience itself can be interpreted again in many ways .
Speaker 3But the way I define it with an awakening experience is sort of like a complete understanding or realization of there being a transcendent reality that we can tap into .
Speaker 3In other words that's why I like to use the term awakening as opposed to mystical experience , even though they sometimes mean the same thing is that it feels like you're waking up almost from a dream state to an ultimate reality , or rather from reality with a small r to a capital R , and it's a sense that's usually typically characterized by a sense of interconnection with the universe or universal consciousness , cosmic consciousness , and individuals often report a deep sense of unconditional love that they may not have experienced before , a sense of again oneness and complete peace and equanimity and a sense of ease .
Speaker 3And then these experiences can also be come about with a variety of different , you know symptoms like strange paranormal activities going on , like synchronicities or meaningful coincidences , and certain other people , I think a little bit more rarely describe , you know , seeing their body from outside of themselves , like a sort of out of body experience at the same time , or they may , you know , hear voices or see things that are not necessarily shared by other individuals , different characteristics , but the main defining feature of them is this sense of interconnection and a sort of sense of realization and contact with an infinity or a sense of eternity . So , again , you know , using words to describe these experiences is really difficult , because the experience in itself is ineffable , so there are no words that can do the experience justice .
Speaker 1It just occurs in a realm , almost , that is non-symbolic , and words are symbols I appreciate you you mentioning that , jessica , because we're stuck here with a um , using words and descriptive terms and research to describe what is essentially experiential in its nature . So that brings me to the question , uh , the natural question . I think that what personal experiences drew me to the question ? The natural question , I think that what personal experiences drew you to this specialization ?
Speaker 3The big question that I get asked always and that makes total sense because it's , you know , it's quite niche , I think , to investigate these kinds of experiences .
Speaker 3But some years ago I was blessed by this experience like the sort that I just described , and it was something that I didn't know was possible prior to , you know , prior to experiencing it myself .
Speaker 3So it completely shattered , let's say , my doors of perception , in Aldous Huxley's words , and I , you know , I sort of experienced a greater sense of truth or reality and a greater sense of contact with myself and with the world around me following that experience .
Speaker 3So it kind of completely shattered my prior view of the world around me and of myself . And so I went on this quest to try and understand the experience better and also to try and validate the experience within the scientific realm , because to date there hasn't been so much research on spiritual experiences and spiritual awakenings , and even less so on spontaneous spiritual awakening type experiences , so on spontaneous spiritual awakening type experiences , and so I saw that there was this sort of gap within our knowledge in science and I thought I'd fill that gap , or I tried to fill that gap , because obviously I don't think that any amount of science , you know , use of the scientific method will ever help us understand the true nature of reality , and if we're going to experience it , it's through going within . But I still think it's very , very important for us to bring a certain type of awareness and understanding of these experiences , scientifically too .
Speaker 1And may I ask just to expand on that , jessica ? I mean you note there about that explosion of the doors of perception . What was your personal belief system , if you will around this type of material , prior to having that experience ? How would you describe yourself as atheistic , spiritual , religious ? Just because I think it helps set a context for the listener in terms of that journey forward .
Speaker 3Yeah , no , understandably , I was a complete atheist before my experience and I didn't believe in anything . I wouldn't say I was a complete atheist before my experience and I didn't believe in anything . I wouldn't say I was a nihilist . I just didn't see there being any point in adhering to a spiritual belief system . I had no experience with it . I had practiced yoga a few years prior to that experience , but by no means any time near that experience anyway , and I enjoyed yoga just purely because it made me feel good physically . But I didn't really believe in , you know , anything pertaining to the spiritual or the religious . So yeah , you could say that I was an atheist , slash agnostic , but not really delving into these kinds of ideas , and I've always been really philosophical . So I've always sort of questioned the nature of reality and in many respects that is spiritual .
Speaker 2But I never associated the two to understand this through the maybe the dominant lens of today's truth , seeking that being the scientific method . So , as a research psychologist , how do you like give us a sense of , how does one approach getting into this kind of work through the scientific method ? Are there particular frameworks or methodologies et cetera , like what , what have you been doing in your work and what's what's out there that helps to contextualize these spiritually transformative experiences through the scientific lens ?
Speaker 3well , I think we often forget that . You know , obtaining first-hand accounts of certain experiences is , you know , it can be used to deduce certain conclusions , draw certain conclusions or um , or help us understand things better scientifically . So I'm a great believer that phenomenology , which is the science of understanding firsthand or subjective experiences , is really important , particularly when it comes to these kinds of experiences that are so underreported within the scientific realm . Obviously , there's a lot of anecdotal evidence out there , but it's just not been compiled in a way that it's been really explored methodologically , you know , through the scientific framework . So , yeah , I think phenomenology is really amazing and it's what I , you know , it's what it's how I , it's what I use to observe spontaneous
Exploring Awakenings and Brain Changes
Speaker 3spiritual awakenings .
Speaker 3In my first paper , basically either through interviews or through a series of questionnaires , you know , really detailed questionnaires you can gather information on people's experiences and then statistically understand the prevalence of the experiences , the predicting variables , such as the different psychological characteristics that people might share that might make them more prone to these kinds of experiences , and also their well-being effects , which I think is paramount to understanding the effects of these experiences and further highlights how badly they've been represented so far within the psychiatric and clinical realm , whereby they're still sort of characterised as pathological by default , and I don't think that that's necessarily true all the time . And at the moment I'm just doing my PhD at the University of Cambridge and we are using the lens of neurophenomenology . So it's phenomenology , what I've just mentioned , combined with neuroscience and neuroimaging , to try and combine firsthand subjective experiences with observable measures through , you know , for instance , eeg or electroencephalogram imaging recordings . So yeah , and then it becomes a little complex , but I can go into it if you would like .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'd love to hear about . Give us a sense of what kind of brain changes are you able to see taking place that correlate to these kinds of experiences ?
Speaker 3Well , we're yet to find out , because I've just started , uh just embarked on this journey three months ago and my first study will take place in a week's time . So , um , we're going to be inducing , um , you know , sort of all trying to induce in a safe setting , of course , uh , altered states of consciousness , uh , through breath , intense breath work practices , states of consciousness , uh , through breath , intense breath work practices , breath retention , uh . So creating a state of proxy hypoxia , uh , where the , where the brain receives less oxygen , and um , and also through yoga and meditation , we're going to try and observe whether there are any changes in the brain , uh and uh , and whether those changes are correlated with what people report that they experience . Yeah , so that's basically what we're trying to do in my PhD .
Speaker 1Just going back to the sort of the research pool , as it were . What are the sort of common triggers or patterns that you've identified among individuals who experience these spontaneous awakenings ? Are the patterns or is it sort of exceptionally random ? What have you found ?
Speaker 3Well , so far , what we've found is that these experiences are more commonly preceded by a state of intense psychological turmoil or trauma , which is really interesting . So that occurred in my own study , which was relatively small , although much bigger than I was expecting given , you know , the the nicheness of the topic we were exploring . But 152 individuals in that study , and about 56% said that they had experienced really intense period , a really intense period of psychological trauma or turmoil prior to the experience . But I think more commonly , or equally as commonly , it's um being out in nature , uh , perhaps for an extended period of time .
Speaker 3So often people report having these experiences on um expeditions or , you know , hiking trips , up mountains , for example , or just in the forest , anyway , in nature generally . And then also , obviously , you know , things like spiritual contemplative practices such as yoga and meditation , and and breath work seems to be , seem to be very conducive to these experiences . And then , you know , there there were a variety of other um preceding variables and triggers that seem to occur . But and again , remember , we were exploring spontaneous experiences , I think most commonly , if you're to remove the spontaneity out of it , it's probably psychedelics or um , you know , uh , the use of entheogens that's going to do it .
Speaker 2We have the category of spontaneous and we're assigning to that trauma or some kind of intense life experience related to this kind of awakening . Then there's a psychedelic category that you're saying that produces these things , practitioners of some kind of spiritual discipline , in which these awakenings simply occur , more or less because they've been on the path for a long time and developing some kind of , you know , skill set or ripening conditions by which this , these occur . Is it fair to say ? Those are the kind of generalized categories .
Speaker 3Are you aware of more ? No , I mean , I'm sure there are many more and these are loose categories . But yes , I think that that's fair to say . That's how I view it at least . But you know , others might contradict that and say that it doesn't quite make sense , because you can have a spontaneous experience , even despite being a long term practitioner . Right , you're not necessarily expecting it to happen , but the way I view it is , yes , an experience that is sudden , out of context , not necessarily triggered by any discernible prior experience , and then , like you said , psychedelics , and then , you know , sort of trying to achieve that state or moving towards that state through a long term practice . Yeah , fair to say .
Speaker 2What would you say is a prevailing theory or your theory as to why these um the first case of trauma or intense life experiences inducing these what's ? What's ? What is the reason then ?
Speaker 3The really really good question and I wouldn't want to say something that's totally wrong , cause I think you know , again , there is such a lack of evidence , scientifically speaking , uh , around these experiences and the anecdotal evidence hasn't really been compiled in a way that we can really draw up the reasons , what you know , or consider the reasons why that might be the case . But I think , from my personal hunch , it's just . I think it's because people's egos or individual sense of self is challenged in moments when they lose someone like a long-term partner or a child or a parent , and in some ways something's going on in the , in the brain or in the nervous system or somewhere beyond , where there's a , there's a clash between what one you you know , who someone thought they were , and then what they've become , and then there's that sort of introspection . I think it just causes a complete obliteration or shattering of one's you know ego , egoic , sense of self , and that can for some reason cause these drastic shifts , but who knows
Defining Spiritual Awakening Experiences
Speaker 3why .
Speaker 1Really , you gave us that wonderful definition at the opening of how you define these awakening experiences . But I want to get really clear on the language . What is it that's constituting these awakening experiences as you're defining them , and how that's dithering from other transformative and mystical experiences ? Because I think it's fair to say that there is a spectrum of transformational experience and many people who've dabbled in psychedelics therapeutically or have done long-term contemplative practice will be aware of what might be referred to as miniature awakenings or stages of awakening , right ? So I suppose what I'm getting to is this like a big kahuna moment , like how are you defining that ? I suppose what I'm getting to is this like a big kahuna moment , like how are you defining that ? Is there some criteria that's being met ? That's saying , okay , here we have a complete and total awakening , or are you ?
Speaker 3interested in those stages . I am interested in those stages the way I see it is . I don't necessarily break it down into stages , I don't feel like it's my position to do so and there are many maps out there and Buddhism and different forms of Buddhism and other religious and spiritual paths that already take care of that . But I think you know I tend not to challenge when people tell me that they have had a spiritual awakening or an experience of enlightenment or non-duality . I think people innately know what that is and it's not really for me to say , oh , that's not so much an awakening , that's more of an awakening . I think the core component to it , whether it's a short burst of insight or whether it's a long lasting permanent state , is that sense of interconnect , of intrinsic interconnection with the universe , of of this inner knowing that there's more , this sense of unconditional love and you know , that's not necessarily a sustainable experience , right , particularly when we live in this , in this , in this world , which is beautiful , but it comes with its challenges , you know .
Speaker 3But I think when people have had even just a glimpse of that experience , they seem to , it seems to stay with them and that , to me , is it qualifies as an awakening . So if someone has an experience and then they sort of brush it off and they don't really remember it , I wouldn't say that's an awakening . Or if people come to me and they say I've had a spiritual experience but I don't know whether it was an awakening . Or if people come to me and they say I've had a spiritual experience , but I don't know whether it was an awakening or not , again , it's not up to me to tell them what it was and or what it wasn't , but I would , in my own mind , through my own framework , would not see that as an awakening because it's so clear , the shift .
Speaker 3It's almost the way I have described it in the past . It's like when you have an orgasm , you know that you've had an orgasm you haven't had like a sub orgasm . It's like you either have or you haven't . And that's the same thing with with awakening . I would say and then and then . I'm sure there are different levels to that and perhaps the ultimate state is to reach a permanent awakened state . But yeah , I think it's . The threshold is probably lower than that .
Speaker 2I wonder , is that more permanent , awakened state , where you would reserve the word enlightenment for versus awakening , because there is clearly a choice to use the word awakening , but there's this other term , enlightenment , out there and sometimes people hold these two terms to describe different things , such as , you know , gradual progression , versus some kind of discrete state change that is somehow permanent . Is that , are those word differentiates in something you're interested in or use ?
Speaker 3I'm interested again , I'm interested in them , but we're all just humans using different words . I think the word enlightenment and I may be wrong , but I've done quite a lot of reading on this and I know you both have too . So , please , I'd actually want to learn what your thoughts are . But I think enlightenment and awakening are kind of synonymous and there may be certain characteristics , certain aspects that are not identical , but no two experiences identical anyway . So , you know , are we going to find a million different ways of describing a similar state ? Perhaps that would be the fair way , but you know , I don't know , I usually don't .
Speaker 3I don't use the word enlightenment so much , purely because it has more of a religious or cultural background or baggage , which isn't necessarily wrong . But you know , I don't feel that it's necessarily for me , but awakening feels a little bit more neutral . But awakening feels a little bit more neutral , although some people who are anti new age jargon , so to speak , in inverted commas , might disagree with me and might think that that's just a bit of a silly word to use . I think it's very descriptive actually . But I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you'd like to share , because it's a really good question .
Speaker 2But I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you'd like to share , because it's a really good question .
Speaker 2Like you're saying , these words are symbols and there are so many different schools and maps out there and teachers and teachings that it's just important to raise one's hand and say , well , this is how I think of it , but it's not necessarily the truth , because what would that really mean ?
Speaker 2I tend to think of awakening versus enlightenment as distinct in that awakening is an ever-flowing process . A person can continue to awaken to greater depths of self throughout their life and whatever iteration , whatever stage , whatever depth and expansion , let's say that can take place . So awakening never ends as a potential , whereas enlightenment I personally differentiate as a distinctive thing which is something that demarcates the idea of that does refer to the traditions from which it arises , something like Buddhism , in which a person , basically , is somehow extinguishing ignorance , extinguishing the false sense of self that was previously their own self-referential context for their existence , and that enlightenment is an experience or depth of awakening , you might say , in which that sense of self is permanently uprooted , permanently shattered , to the degree that it can't take root again . So there's like structural components to it which might be neurological or energetic and and that that false sense of self can never take root again in the individual , and thereby they have extinguished the ignorance of the false self or false view of self . That's personal opinion .
Speaker 3Very interesting . I have many . I have questions for you now .
Speaker 1You mentioned the , the cultural there , jessica , prior to Keith , and Keith also mentioned that he has that understanding and mentioned and referenced Buddhism . How is it that you're finding that individuals , when they're submitting information to you by questionnaires or in-person interviews , how is it that cultural , religious and spiritual frameworks are influencing the way that people are interpreting and processing their awakening , their experience ? Because I think that dialogue that we've just had is actually really helping to inform that everybody's coming through their own lens , although ironically , awakening arguably the lens is dropped , but the way in which this is linguistically retold , right as a tale , because it's experiential , so we're retelling it must be that you're seeing people interpret and retell these experiences through through the lenses of their culture and and spiritual references not so much actually , which is really interesting .
Speaker 3Obviously they'll use different words , but essentially , when it comes down to , when you drill down to it , it's the same thing like without needing to interpret what those words mean .
Post-Awakening Realities and Impacts
Speaker 3And I was also surprised to find that , at least in my study and in subsequent studies that I've taken part in , and you know , through conversations that I've had with individuals who claim to have had awakening experiences , individuals who claim to have had awakening experiences , um it , that sense of religiosity or prior cultural baggage seems to drop away in many cases . So lots of people who claim to have these experiences and who were perhaps religious , um , beforehand , they , they tend to rid themselves of that dogmatic element of the religiosity that they would hold onto . That's not to say they'll stop being religious , but they will understand that the religion that they're adhering to is just one lens through which you can interpret the world and that the experience that underlies the religion is similar in many different religions and spiritual philosophies . So , yeah , there seems to be a ridding of dogmatic views and thus a shift away from religion itself .
Speaker 3I thought that was really interesting . But those who ? This is just , you know , through observation and it's not been empirically validated . But I've also noticed , however , that people who claim to have visions at the time of their awakening which again seems to be a little bit rare , and I'm talking about visions where they can see things with their eyes open or closed , but there does seem to be some sort of the prior belief or prior religious , you know , adherence seems to play a part in the sort of figures that they might see . It's like flavoring the moment , I think .
Speaker 2You know , through what I've observed , this is the phrase in Buddhism they say when you get to the most expansive states of self-reference , is that what happens is the psyche produces an archetypal symbol related to your reference . So it's going to be Jesus , it's going to be Buddha , it's going to be whatever and that's the highest . Like whatever . It is highest in the psyche , like the God vision or God symbol , has to be killed , has to be like that , has to be released to not see that there's self and other , like you're saying . It's interesting that that arises .
Speaker 2A brief pause to thank you for listening to this episode . If you're looking to take the next step in your transformation , find out how we can support you with our popular energy healing training , one-to-one private sessions , free resources and more . Visit energyfielddynamicscom to learn more In terms of being you know in the scientific world , being in academia , as you are right now , and taking on this subject matter . What is that like ? I'm always so curious when we speak to people who are working in academia , in the world of you know , spirituality or the challenges that naturally arise when doing something .
Speaker 3That's clearly kind of a little bit outside of the framework that many people who are within that institutional lens are working within . It off on this journey . And bear in mind I haven't been on this journey for so so long because I was working in something completely different before I embarked on the scientific , on the academic journey . But there , you know , occasionally there is the odd person who doesn't really understand . But I think it's becoming undeniable that people are having certain experiences .
Speaker 3I think what people academics , scientists don't like to hear so much and it's very fair is when people assume again this dogmatic view of the experience and say this occurred and so it must mean this .
Speaker 3Well , maybe , but that's just one lens and I think that's what really , you know , gets the most pushback from the scientific community .
Speaker 3But if you simply present the fact that people have these experiences , that they can be deeply transformative and you know they can be positive and occasionally negative and that they're not being well received with the current scientific , psychiatric and clinical frameworks , then you're making a good case for further investigation and that's kind of you can't really deny firsthand experience and you know the interpretation may not be one that is shared amongst everybody within my lab , for example , but that doesn't matter . We don't all need to share the same views on things . I think it's really important for us to not be so polarized in this society , and that goes you know that also that can also be brought into the sort of scientific realm like we don't all need to share the same interpretations , and I think it's very healthy for there to be a diverse community of thinkers and but for there to be the opportunity to look at certain experiences equally to others . It's undeniable that these experiences occur , so if you're a good scientist , you know it's important to also look into them .
Speaker 1Let's talk about the after effects , as it were , for a moment , jessica , that after the experience , after the awakening . I'm intrigued to hear what you see as being people's experience of day-to-day reality and live life after these experiences , both positive and negative , as you say , because it's important to be transparent here . For some people , this is an incredibly disruptive experience and in fact , as you said , there's psychiatric implications , perceived or real , right for some people who have experienced this path .
Speaker 3Yeah , I think you're a very different person after you've had the experience compared to before . You know , even if the experience is deeply positive in its nature , it causes , I think , in most cases , a sense of disruption , like you said .
Exploring Spiritual Awakening and Psychedelics
Speaker 3You rightfully said that can shatter the way that you view the world , view yourself , view your interactions , view what you find important in life . And that can be quite difficult , you know , if you're not , first of all , if you don't have an existing framework through which to understand and interpret your experience and a community with which you can share the experience , it can be very lonely , a very lonely space to be in , despite it being beautiful . And then , as you mentioned , you know , on the flip side , there are even what one might call a negative , negative spiritual experiences . You know they can be really , really difficult . So , in other words , they can , they will always , almost always , have drastic implications on people's behaviors , perceptions , um , you know , thoughts , everything , cognitions .
Speaker 1Even so , it's important to take that into consideration and you mentioned that , um , sometimes people experience psychiatric challenges and either that or a misidentified , mis mislabeled by what might be the mental health care system . Following these experiences , were you able to include data from that sort of quotient , as it were , in your research , or is that non-accessible by its nature ?
Speaker 3It's not non-accessible by its nature , but we weren't able to do it for my because that was part of my master's degree and and , yeah , we , we didn't , we didn't obtain that kind of uh data , unfortunately . It would have been really interesting well , in fact , paramount , of paramount importance to look at that , but we didn't , um , but , but I will at some point . Um , that's one of the things that I really want to do is , you know , to better understand the points of convergence and divergence between what we might term as spiritual awakenings or enlightenment experiences and psychiatric disorders , and also the points of overlap , because , you know , these experiences don't necessarily occur in a vacuum and they might trigger certain psychiatric states or psychiatric , certain psychiatric states might trigger spiritual experiences . So , in other words , I think that we're operating there are two separate um . You know , there's the world of psychiatry , in the world of spirituality , and there are awakenings and there are psychotic experiences , and I believe that awakenings can occur as experiences in their own right , without the presence of a mental health disorder , but that they can also , you know , merge and fuse together and there is definitely like a , you know , a really it's a really important area to investigate .
Speaker 3It's not clear and different cultures will interpret experiences differently , and I think it's also important for us to not necessarily always assume that the western , western uh you know way of thinking and dealing with these experiences is necessarily the right way . Um . So yeah , and I think we're learning from our mistakes and with , I feel like there is a movement for change now , and particularly with the introduction of , or sorry , the reawakening , um , no pun intended of the psychedelic movement um , in recent years and um and how that's you know , sort of sort of shown us an alternative . You know that they're not psychotomimetic , um , you know drugs , necessarily , but they can be healing , um , healing medicines for a lot of people as well . But you kind of need to know a variety of different things before .
Speaker 2So you mentioned , uh , before that within the scientific community that we can't disregard or just write off people's experience , and that's this world of phenomenology , like you , can account for all these different subjective experiences and that itself , studied appropriately , can be presented within a scientific paradigm .
Speaker 2So thank God for phenomenology , at a minimum In terms of psychedelics and wetting those two things . We see that there is this big , you know , neo-shamanic psychedelic medicine movement taking place , and part of that is happening within a therapeutic medical framework in which people who are , you know , the really famous studies , people who are , you know the really famous studies , people who are you know , given like a terminal kind of diagnosis of sorts and then gone , given one one properly administered psychedelic experience , produce massively positive results . You know , like they really all the depression will go away and or , and the efficacy is insane , way better than any kind of Western pharmaceutical drugs currently on the market . So I'm curious about how you've been dipping into this world . It sounds like you have some engagement with it , are you ? Do you have particular plans for working within that domain ? Are you doing any research there yourself ? Are you partaking in those things for firsthand accounts ? Like , could you tell us a little bit about your interface with the psychedelic therapeutic movement taking place .
Speaker 3I mean as a researcher of awakening experiences . I think it's really important for me to know my bit about psychedelic research because , you know , awakenings can occur through psychedelics as well , and whilst I'm predominantly interested in , again , those of spontaneous and random nature , non-drug induced nature , it's like inevitable that the worlds will coalesce , and often when people describe mystical experiences induced through psychedelics , they're the same or similar to those that are non-psychedelic . So you know , I think it's really important for researchers investigating these kinds of experiences to also delve into the world of psychedelics . I don't have plans right now to do psychedelic research .
Speaker 3I've got quite a lot of other plans and other studies that I need to execute first but I think they're definitely a very interesting way of um of observing these experiences and particularly the brain on under these states , because you can't induce a spontaneous awakening experience and that's a problem through yoga and meditation . It's hard to induce a spontaneous awakening , like an awakening experience , you know , during a weekend retreat , but with psychedelics you can observe the changes in real time . So I think it's a really effective tool to look at the brain under these states . Yeah , so eventually I'll probably delve into the world of psychedelic research as well , but for now I'm interested in endogenous experiences .
Speaker 1You mentioned . The pushback , as it were , in the scientific community has been less than you'd perhaps anticipated . What are some of the biggest challenges for you ? Researching something as subjective as this , as deeply personal ?
Speaker 3as this . I mean , I think the general challenge is funding . There's very little funding when it comes to , you know , exploring these kinds of experiences scientifically . But you're talking about , on a more personal level , what have been my challenges ? There haven't been a whole lot of challenges in terms of what I'm researching . Of course , hearing negative experiences is challenging . It's sad . You want to help people , but that's quite rare anyway , because most people who have a oneness experience are really happy , because most people who have , like , a oneness experience are really happy , even if it's disconcerting and confusing . But I would say that's probably the most challenging aspect of exploring these experiences through the realm of qualitative research and also quantitative . But anyway , it's hearing people's stories . But it's also the greatest reward . You know , um , but again , at the moment I'm doing less of the sort of interviewing um style qualitative research and doing more um . Yeah , we're using a different phenomenological methodology , um , that marries really well with neuroscience . So that's not so much an issue at the moment . But yes , for anyone listening , uh , funding is a huge issue in this .
Speaker 1This might be a slightly unfair question , jessica , but I'm intrigued and perhaps you're not able to answer it . Do you think it would be possible to do what you're doing as well as you're doing it , without having had your own experience ?
Speaker 3I think I don't think that people who don't haven't had an experience of of the sort of like a spiritual experience , I don't think they should even be touching the subject , for I know I'm going to receive a lot of um criticism for saying this . Look , I think it's important for everybody to try their best to understand these experiences better . So I welcome anyone to go into the science of these experiences , but I think you need to have some sort of firsthand experience to understand the psychology of the people you're interviewing or you know who are partaking in your experiments , because otherwise you're losing the granularity of what you're trying to investigate , you're losing the real sense of what you're trying to investigate . It's not necessary , but I don't think I would . Yeah , I don't think I would be able to understand the nuances if I hadn't had my own experience , and I certainly wouldn't have as much the passion for it .
Speaker 2So , given what you're describing there , how do we understand this spiritually awakening kinds of experiences within the context of something like human evolution ? Do we , you know , is there , obviously , in the academic , institutional environment , materialism and reductionism is the dominant perspective or belief system . How do you contextualize this within a biological , evolutionary standpoint , and or is there room for other ways of thinking about this in terms of human evolution , the role that these experiences play ?
Speaker 3Many philosophers have thought of these experiences as , yeah , like the next step in human evolution , and I'm not sure how I feel about that . I'm not sure about that . I think we have all always had the potential within us to have these experiences , and they're possibly happening at a higher rate because more and more people are engaging in spiritual , contemplative practices around the world and in psychedelic use , um , and so they're expected to rise in , in in frequency , but , um , I don't know about , like , in terms of evolution , whether it it's an evolutionary response , let's say . But it could well be , I'd love for it to be , but I don't know .
The Power of Community in Awakening
Speaker 2You know you also said that people you know can have these experiences and then feel very lonely if there's no context and no community . So you know what role does community or mentorship , you know being able to communicate with other people about this and have feedback , have maps or even therapeutic context after the fact . You know what role do these after the experience community or connection in relation to the experience have to help people to integrate ? Or , you know , sustain their insight , or what have you sustain their insight ?
Speaker 3or what have you . I think , um , I think it's paramount to find a community , particularly a neutral community maybe , because you're not necessarily expected to believe , uh , or stay rigid in your belief of what happened to you , and that's deeply therapeutic in itself . Um , I think community helps us make sense of our experiences , it helps us integrate our experiences because we're saying them out loud and we're making them , you know , we're putting them out there into an objective , shared reality and for some reason that has , you know , that plays a big role in people feeling safe in their experience and even safe enough to go deeper in their experience . And you know we're social creatures . So , you know , sometimes you'll have an experience of awakening and you might feel like you don't need anybody , and this can cause people to not really communicate very much with their friends and family and stuff , communicate very much with their friends and family and stuff .
Speaker 3But I think , actually , eventually , many people return to the desire of connecting and and that's a very human , very human desire , and I think it's again , it's really important and so important that I started my own sharing circles on a monthly basis in London , because I really realized there was a need for people to come together around these topics , which are typically tabooed in our everyday . You know our everyday society and I think you know finding a safe , nonjudgmental space where you can really fully come into your being and express your views and your thoughts and your interpretations without the fear of someone else projecting their own experience or beliefs onto you or telling you what's right or what's wrong . To just have a passive or an active but but non-invasive audience there to listen to you is deeply therapeutic , and even hearing other people's experience can be deeply therapeutic because you feel that you're not alone . So I really believe strongly in the power of community .
Speaker 1You mentioned there that sense of taboo and also fear , and I think that this topic can induce fear in some people and I'm sure you've encountered that in your own research and studies and experience . How would you summarize that ? What's happening when people are encountering that resistance or fear to what's being shared in the experience of awakening ?
Speaker 3I think it's normal .
Speaker 3If you've never had such an experience , then you'll interpret it through whichever lens you view anything that falls outside of the boundaries of what you know to be reality . And that's scary , you know , we think that this material world is all there is , but when you have an experience like that , then you sort of you realize that there are multiple layers to this reality . Like this is real , but there are other dimensions to reality that you can access , and this is all symbolic , symbolically speaking , right , and I think a lot of people who live purely on this , in this gross and I mean gross as in material state of being , they don't know that there is a possibility of exiting or experiencing anything beyond that , know that there is a possibility of exiting or experiencing anything beyond that . It's scary when other people say that they have had that . And also , I don't think religion has done us many favors when it comes to thinking about these things . I think my own personal belief is that these experiences are innate within us , that we are spiritual beings having a physical experience .
Speaker 1Expanding on that perhaps . How is it that spiritual awakening , or awakening to make it more neutral , can benefit society at large ?
Speaker 3as you see it , Well , I think , if well-contained and well-supp supported , the experience can show us an alternative , often a more positive alternative , to living and to existing in this world .
Speaker 3It often makes people feel more empathetic , more in touch with their surroundings , with nature , with animals , with human beings .
Speaker 3It typically makes people feel less materialistic , less wanting to hoard money and , you know , less dogmatic , in many different ways , on many different levels , and I think those are all really positive shifts that people can undergo through awakening .
Speaker 3And I think those are all really positive shifts that people can undergo through awakening .
Speaker 3And I think , if we can , we can help support that process and help people , you know , get in touch with those states and really explore the fruits of those states . Then , you know , then it will be a very positive thing for humanity , because we need more of that right now . We need people to come together , we need connection , we need , we need , we need love , and those experiences often show us the truth of the matter , which is that all is love and all that matters is that we care for each other and that we care for our , for our life and for our future , and that's , that's what I think keith and I have noticed is a dearth of reliable material around kundalini awakening and awakening support and we just wondered if there were any references or resources that you found to be reliable for those out there interested in this field to explore if you're wanting to learn , you're wanting to reach out to a qualified , you know , psychologist or mental health professional around these experiences , there are a number of resources .
Speaker 3There's the Spiritual Crisis Network , which is based in the UK , but I believe you can contact them from anywhere in the world . There there's the international uh spiritual emergence network , um , who are also really good , um . And then there's also Cheetah House and they deal with adverse meditation experiences , mostly predominantly . I would say start with those three resources , um , because they're they're , they're just really good resources . There are other , there are many others , many others , based in different parts of the world . So if you're looking for one in your part of the world , then just you know , there will definitely be something there for you , I'm sure , because all of these organizations are mushrooming up at the moment .
Speaker 2We'd like to check in with people as we come to towards the end of um interviews , kind of what do you see on the horizon for yourself , so like would you want to share any kind of aspirations or projects you're working on or futures you foresee ?
Speaker 3um , I have many dreams , but right now I'm really happy where I am . So , uh , you know , I've just just started this PhD . I'm working at the Consciousness and Cognition Lab at Cambridge and they're an amazing bunch of people . I am able to do the experiments that I want . So I feel really , really blessed right now . I feel like I couldn't ask for in that respect . Um and then , but , but there are dreams brewing and there are , you know , future projects that I'm definitely going to be um envisioning very soon , manifesting , as some people like to call it , um jokes . But anyway , yeah , there's , there's a lot there , but yeah , right now I'm really happy where I am you mentioned the importance of community , jessica .
Speaker 1I'd love for you to share um .
Speaker 3If people resonate with you and your work , um where does they can find you and what your offerings and services are um , well , I've yet to create a website , so , um , um , yeah , watch the space , but you can contact me on my email , um , on my email address , uh , which is , well , my academic one is jsc204 at camacuk , uh , I offer monthly sharing circles , as I mentioned , for people who have had any form of spiritual experience at this stage , um , so , whether positive or negative , uh , whether it's a complete oneness experience or or something more light , um , or whether you're , you know , hearing voices or whatnot , you're very welcome to join me at the monthly sharing cycle with the psychedelic society uk , and they're based in london , um , and they usually occur on , um , on a sunday , typically the last sunday of the month . So that's what I'm offering at the moment . And , uh , yeah , I also offer one-to-one kundalini yoga sessions , uh , if anyone's interested in that wonderful .
Speaker 1Really appreciate it . Thank you so much for spending the time here with us today . It's been a real pleasure to connect . Thanks for being a part of the future of wellness . Be sure to subscribe and leave a review . It helps us reach more people and to make great episodes like this one . Learn more about field dynamics and why we think the future of wellness matters . Check us out at energyfielddynamicscom . See you next time .
